"Tactical Carbine Training"- Another take…


Tam opined on ‘tactical training’ HERE, and Alan chimed in HERE and tongue in cheek HERE. I have had a chance this week to sit down with an active duty SEAL Chief and I posed the question(s) to him.

The Chief has multiple combat tours in the sandbox and other places, and has been and is currently serving as an instructor in addition to his other duties. The Chief (20 years as a SEAL) had a primary of weapons and sniper, plus serving as the Platoon chief for multiple deployments.

He basically said up front- Why do ‘you’ need that training as a civilian? It is inherently dangerous, there is no way you can possibly learn everything you need to know in 3-5 days, you have no idea whom or at what level of training the others in the class may have, how good the instructor/assistants are etc., etc., etc.

If you’re that serious, you need to join the military and become a REAL operator (assuming you could qualify)…

He then pointed out that in the military you ‘know’ who your instructor is (e.g. he/she’s been vetted by higher, gone to school to learn the correct way to conduct training, and been observed by senior trainers before ever being allowed ‘out’ on their own), also in the military, people ‘wear’ their resumes on their chests…

There is no doubt about that person’s qualifications to stand up in front of you and teach you, and know that he/she can do so safely.

What is the definition of the ‘tactical training’? Is it LEO, SWAT or military? Three very distinct options, many more if you start throwing in the various sub-genres of “SEAL, Spetznaz, Mossad, Shin Bet, SAS”

Each has a distinct set of parameters, some of which are blatantly in conflict with one another; the military accepts collateral damage as a function of combat, SWAT/LEO does not and minimizes collateral damage (military (SEAL) room clear= surgically kill everybody but the hostage; LEO/SWAT room clear= don’t shoot anybody that is non-threat);

Training ‘ranges’- He said inspection for safety should be paramount. They learned that the hard way a few years ago, when one SEAL was killed through a significant error in a shoot house off base that did not have a safety wall between active shoot rooms and a round went through the wall, killing the SEAL in the other room. He said he will not walk onto a range/shoot house training without his vest on and chicken plates in place (which is not an option for civilians)…

“Basic” requirements to participate- How are those verified? As an aside, the Chief pointed out their training cycle is roughly 6 months long AFTER you get qualified…

Instructor qualifications- CHECK them… If they are not readily presented and references willingly provided, DON’T PATRONIZE THEM or the range.

Muzzling- Gets you boarded, immediately… It may end your SEAL career, especially if you do it with a live weapon. He’s never heard or used the term ‘big boy rules’ and though it was pretty lame. In the military, you are expected to take responsibility for your action(s) including on a live range. Basic gun handling (the four rules) is constantly harped on, drilled multiple times before you ever do it ‘for real’ (e.g. with live ammo), and you do it hundreds of times to ingrain that muscle memory.

He also talked about the SMC mantra, which is shoot, move, communicate (verbal or non-verbal). That is what they live by, and practice all the time. His take was ‘true’ tactical shooting was surgical (e.g. one three round burst per target), and knowing what each team member was doing and where they were going next. He also talked about ‘targeted’ training based on deployment location, e.g. Iraq vs. Afghanistan use different procedures due to different building construction, entry methods, etc.

When we talked about outside training, the ONLY place he would recommend is Mid-South Institute for Self Defense Shooting. He said they have used their facilities for ‘tune up’ just prior to deployment and they were well supported.

His final thought was the better course to take would be a pistol training course, they are actually harder and concentrate more on handling, actually being able to hit a target, malf drills and you are much more likely to actually USE the training than anything else.

I’m not saying this is the last word, but there are things the Chief said that bear thinking about… YMMV, etc…

Edit- Go HERE and check this out… would you want this guy as your instructor???

H/T TOTC

Comments

"Tactical Carbine Training"- Another take… — 57 Comments

  1. Well said! As humble as my certifications are, they are on display in the classroom I teach in. I only teach civilian basic pistol (modified FIRST steps for new shooters and the State Concealed Carry Handgun classes).

    I have two real jobs, this is undertaken only for my motivation that if you are a legal gun owner, don’t make the rest of us look bad later!

    I consider these classes paramount in grounding in the basics of firearm safety. Everything else after that builds on what I teach. It is a huge responsibility and one I take seriously. If someone wants to run around and play “Mall Ninja” after they have been through my classes I hope if they see the rules I taught them violated they will speak up and if not resolved leave if needed.

    Hell, I never want to “pull my gat out and ventilate” anyone. I especially do not want any students hurt!

  2. Thanks for this post. Sometimes I fear that enthusiasm for guns will create a civilian tacticool mindset that can ultimately be more dangerous to us all.

  3. I think that there’s a great deal of misunderstanding here.

    A lot of people keep a shotgun or other longarm for defense in their home and never have the opportunity to use it outside the rather sterile environment of the shooting bench at their local 100-yard Fish & Game range.

    Conversely, carbine classes are fun, and there are folks who put a disproportionate amount of time into them vis a vis their CCW handgun or the shotgun they keep propped in the corner.

    Central Indiana has a fantastic training resource in Boone County Sheriff Ken Campbell, who is a Gunsite adjunct instructor and who brings some of the best known and most respected trainers in the industry to the Sheriff’s Dept. range (Louis Awerbuck, Pat Rogers, et al.) and throws the classes open to the general public.

    This isn’t “SWAT entry training” or “shooting at 300 yards” or whatever, but it does allow people to learn to do things, such as shoot on the move or draw and reholster a loaded handgun without setting themselves on fire, under the supervision of professional trainers.

    Too bad more sheriffs aren’t like Ken.

  4. I will agree with the point that there is very little value in special warfare or SWAT training for folks like myself. I’ll never be dropped behind enemy lines or rescue hostages from a deranged gun man at the local mall.

    I agree with checking your instructors pedigree and range layout. So far everyone I have had the pleasure of training with has made safety the #1 concern.

    Yes I carry a pistol where ever I can and have received training in it’s use and the legal limitations that a CCW brings with it.

    Having said that, I will always choose a carbine to defend my home and family if possible and have gone to training to learn and polish skills.

    In every class there have been members of the military and LEO as students and in every case they stated they wish they had this kind of training from their own organizations. When that comes from a USMC SSGT or a USSS agent that means something. They had learned to shoot weapons but not how to fight with them.

    If you stick with folks like John Farnam, Clint Smith, Jeff Gonzales, Tom Givens and Paul Gomez you’ll learn all the skills you will need to deploy a rifle in a defensive setting.

    Gerry

  5. Anything Tactical isn’t really much better than Sexy – but tactical sells in firearms while sexy doesn’t get more than glancing attention. Word choice.

    All training is better than none, although I really don’t like learning something the wrong way – if I survive I can teach the correct way.

    I am still of the humble opinion that learning the basics will get most of the people to the point of prepared to squeeze the trigger – unless the shock of taking someone’s life gets them frozen.

  6. Nfo , I Have and do use the term ” big boy rules ” on my range . It is ( as you know personally ) to indicate that a RO will not stand over your shoulder telling you when to load and make ready . Loaded , holstered pistols are not a reason for psh , and a fumble zone is identified . New shooters will be ” mentored ” by a competent coach . To me that is ” big boy range rules ” , Its not unsafe shit like folks downrange .
    I have never got the impression that anyone attending blogarado felt that the range rules were unsafe in any fashion . If that is the case i hope to hell they let me know and we will assess the concerns .

  7. My shooting mentor two decades ago said much the same. He was retired military and had time with some spook operations as well.

    He scoffed at training other than with handguns. As I remember, he said that he’d never had the time to get a weapon other than what he was carrying at the time. Civilians carry pistols. That’s what they should train with. If you want to carry a rifle, enlist.

    He also didn’t think much of the trainers at the time like Gunsite and Thunder Ranch.

  8. Yup I’m sure the Team Guy recommended Mid-South; Shaw certainly used to go to quite some lengths to “accomodate” the platoons that came through.
    As for someone denigrating Gunsite or Thunder Ranch I’ll just say that there was a good deal of TAD money spent at Gunsite before (and after) Shaw started and at least one of the instructors was a retired (and well-known) SEAL. Another proponent of Gunsite in the “Orange” days was a senior SEAL awarded the Navy Cross for combat in RVN.
    This Chief seems to be saying the equivalent of “Only Cops should…” except it’s “Only Team Guys should learn to fight with M4’s” I disagree.
    I sent my Bride to Thunder Ranch for “Urban Rifle” for a number of reasons; first, she needed to be taught to shoot and despite the fact that I’ve trained hundreds of people in and out of the service I’m not gonna train my wife; second, if she was only gonna learn one weapon I wanted it to be a “long” gun; third, my assessment is that Clint Smith runs the best school in the country open to the public.
    Oh and I sent my younger son – is enlisted – to Thunder Ranch before his first deployment to compensate for the “training” he got in the service.

  9. Keads- Good point! This post is NOT about those that do it right, and thankfully there are MANY of you out there.

    Julie/Lawyer- You’re welcome

    Tam- My point exactly! The differences between a true ‘basic’ carbine class and tactical SWAT/Military tactical classes are huge, and I think there are people who do not understand that difference when they are looking for training or purposely mis-understand it. It is one thing to actually learn how to maneuver, shoot, conduct malf drills, etc. in a safe manner, while not tripping over your carbine or banging it off walls as you move, but my post is more toward the so called advanced tactical classes, where you have team shoot/move and people downrange on a live range.

    As you say, there ARE quality instructors out there, but today it is getting harder and harder to separate the wheat from the chaff. And this might be a serious issue (as you posited) if things go wrong.

    Gerry- You make the same good points!

    Fuzzy- You’re welcome

    Earl- Concur with all your points!

    FD- You don’t allow shooters down range on an active range, you DO designate specific places to do things and all of us follow those instructions. Your rule set is a safe rule set, it’s just sad that “big boy rules” seems to have been adopted as the ‘excuse’ if you screw up, rather than people voluntarily RSOing themselves and others…

    Crucis- point!

  10. Crucis,

    The only person who could have had a negative opinion of Thunder Ranch twenty years ago would be your neighborhood psychic. 😉

  11. So it’s your right to own a scary looking assault rifle, but don’t try to learn how to use it, because that’s only for the government to know?

    Do I have that right?

  12. I am curious, where would training like provided by Gabe Suarez fall?

    With all respect to the SEAL, my goal is not to train for SWAT, SPECOPS or anything specialized, but pissing on peoples right to train with their gun? What am I missing?

  13. I admit I may have remembered the name of the site wrong. There were two leading training site then. I attended one by Clint that he brought to KC for an extended weekend.

  14. Boat guy- The thrust of my post was the so called “advanced” tactical training where you are for example, team shooting with people you don’t know, in environments you realistically will never be in… I’m not saying don’t get BASIC training, nor have I denigrated any training program. All I said was to CHECK the qualifications of the instructors!

    pdb- That’s not the point and you know it… basic training is always recommended, but why do you need to do room clearing drills with 4-5 people (with live ammo) whom you’ve never met until the day before? And how much are you going to retain of that “intense” training 1 month/6 months/1 year later???

    Anon- I’ve never taken a course by Suarez, so I couldn’t tell you. I firmly believe in basic training courses, but he point of this post was the so called “advanced” tactical training, where you are doing team/downrange shooting with either you or others in the van. If you want to do that, be my guest, but I prefer to NOT put myself in situations where I can be shot ‘accidentally’ or ‘inadvertently’ by somebody who does something the instructor misses, or who sweeps the wrong way in a room clear, and muzzles me with the finger on the trigger and boom- I’m a target… Dead is dead, whether it’s accidental or inadvertent…

  15. I think that if people want to take classes like the tactical carbine classes because they’re fun and just to learn a new skill, (or hone one) that’s great, have at it. I think the people most gunnies have problems with are the ones who take those classes and act like they’re on the same level as the military, or try to portray themselves that way.

    They’re not, and they’re never going to be, unless they join up and get *that* training.

    Personally, I don’t think anyone is really trying to run down the tactical training in general so much as pointing out that it’s not the great glowing end all be all, and to some minds, it’s not necessary.

    I’ve watched this turn into a big bruhaha and just had to put my two cents in… I think this is just gonna be another Glock VS 1911 issue.

  16. @Farmgirl- Well at least I can say I don’t think this conversation will invoke Godwin’s law!

  17. OldNFO,

    …but why do you need to do room clearing drills with 4-5 people (with live ammo) whom you’ve never met until the day before?

    Uh, who’s doing that? Seriously, who?

    I think part of this whole pissing match is that a straw man has been set up to be knocked down. A lot of pixels are being expended about the firearms training industry here by people whose very comments display that they have, at best, only passing familiarity with it.

    If you know of an instructor doing that, you just answered your question from an earlier comment…

  18. Oh, FWIW:

    Anon- I’ve never taken a course by Suarez…

    And I never would.

    A good negative indicator is any civilian trainer who constantly pimps that whole “warrior” nonsense. We have two wars going on right now; if somebody wants to be a warrior, they don’t need to pay to do it, the government will actually pay them to.

  19. “Why do ‘you’ need that training as a civilian?”

    Why do ‘you’ need a car that’s capable of going 180 miles an hour?

    Why do ‘you’ need a private plane?

    Why do ‘you’ need more than one gun a month?

    I pretty much agree with most of the comments here, but whenever someone starts talking about “why do you need ” my hackles go up.

  20. o.O

    I think I’ll just go back to quietly cleaning my gun.

    In all seriousness though, it’s certainly nice to see a level of disagreement without ugliness or animosity.

  21. Tam- I do not remember who it was, but there was a video from a training school about team shooting, including tactical advance/retreat which also included shoot house training. I’ve tried running a quick search but I can’t find it now.

    Re the strawman- I just asked the SEAL about what your original post stated “in this class, you will learn Spetznaz-developed techniques to hone your gunfighting warrior combat mindset. Prepare to open your mind as you leave the square range behind and enter the Real World. Big Boy Rules apply.” and advanced tactical training in general…

    Dwight- The whole issue was ‘advanced’ tactical i.e. SWAT/MIL type training, when the odds of your EVER using it are slim and none, and the odds for things to go wrong are MUCH higher than in a basic training class… So why do you NEED to put yourself potentially in danger for a questionable learning experience that you will have forgotten most of within 6 months because you can’t practice those skills?

  22. OldNFO,

    My “class description” was as bogus as the day is long. 😉

    (Although I deliberately sprinkled it with a few buzz words intended to elicit a chuckle from those familiar with the firearms training scene…)

    Unfortunately, there’s no real accrediting body for the industry and it does attract fantasy salesmen and Walter Mittys, both students and instructors, and it pays to be an informed consumer, which is what my post was directed towards.

    There’s also an incredible amount of fanboyism and testosterone-by-association in the industry. There are certain instructors who feel shut out of a clique, and therefore try to hype some “warrior” nonsense as a substitute for a solid resume.

    A book could be written about this, but I am distressed to see some people seemingly so anxious to defenestrate the baby along with the bathwater.

  23. Nacho Pizza is about the last person/place that I’d take training. I get the crap from Sewerez in my Inbox, and he’s more about selling his DVDs and books, and using an AK pattern rifle. Most of the over-hyped trainers charge WAY too much IMHO. I haven’t taken any advanced long gun training, and I don’t plan on doing it any time soon. As long as I can hit the black with my AR from 300 yards, I figure that I’m going to be fine.

  24. Anon- not really, it’s more about safety…

    Tam- EXACTLY! Thank you! 🙂 There really is NO standardization…

    I probably could have arranged the post better, as I guess I buried the main point-

    “What is the definition of the ‘tactical training’? Is it LEO, SWAT or military?…various sub-genres of “SEAL, Spetznaz, Mossad, Shin Bet, SAS”

    down in the middle of the post. Also, the Chief was cued in more to the “team” type tactical training, since that is what he does every day; and since he’s literally putting his life on the line, I thought his perspective would be interesting. I’m actually surprised at the amount of mis-interpretation either intentional or un-intentional this post has caused.

  25. OldNFO,

    I’m gathering from Farmgirl’s comment that some stuff has gone down in IRC or email, and I’m completely out of that loop, so you’ll have to forgive me.

    As far as what I wrote above, the closest thing to “accreditation” is Gunsite and the various schools that spread from that fountainhead: Clint at Thunder Ranch (and his padawan learner, Tiger McKee at Shootrite), Louis at YFA, Pat at EAG, Randy Cain, etc. Then there are guys with a solid .mil background, like Larry Vickers or TigerSwan or Magpul. If somebody wants to play dressup at these courses, that’s their business, but Vickers or the guys at TigerSwan sure aren’t going to let somebody confuse themselves with an “operator”. (I’ll let you google to see why… 😉 )

    The first article I linked in my post is an excellent treatise on being a wise consumer of training services, BTW…

  26. Snigs- Good idea 🙂

    Smokey- That IS the bottom line isn’t it 🙂

    Tam- Understood, most of that and the emails/chat are about how people are ‘interpreting’ the post.

    I’m fully in agreement with you, and when I linked your post I made the ‘assumption’ that people would read it AND the links. Having said that, with the proliferation of the interwebz, etc. Anybody can hang out a shingle and claim to be an expert trainer, HSLD or whatever and there is no single point or ANY point to actually verify their standards. Those you named are the start, and the professionals in the truest sense of the word…

    They have a proven track record, proven training tracks, and years of experience (good and bad) with students. They also WILL NOT tolerate excesses in their classes and will not train someone who does not meet their standards for that course.

    Others??? I don’t know…

  27. First off, thought it was a good post.

    Second, in any field of endeavor there exist incompetents, fools, and outright frauds. It is almost always well to carefully ensure one is not getting trained by an instructor drawn from one or more of these categories.

    Peculiar to the gun (and a few other) communities, there are a bunch of great hairy wannabe’s. They, too, should be avoided as they are most often a danger to themselves and others (though with time, they have been known to detox and turn into genuinely nice folks).

    Any time someone who’s been there and done that, particularly with significant professional training/qualifications, wants to discourse on gun & training stuff…I’m willing to at least try and listen (a droning monotone, obnoxiousness, or simple ass-hattery make this difficult).

    An experienced SEAL Chief has, in all likelihood, an awful lot of knowledge and expertise to have achieved that position.

    Go back, re-read the original post w/ an open mind (performing self-administered cranio-anal extraction, if required)…the Chief makes some good points and shares some insights I certainly found useful.

  28. GC- Thanks! 🙂 and yeah, the Chief does have quite a bit of experience, both good and bad…

  29. Excellent post and many very good comments. My two cents:

    1. To borrow from The Duke’s last role, I believe that a person should know how to handle a firearm and use it with discretion (i.e. legally, morally and safely). If carbine training helps a person learn these things, then that’s good.

    2. I also agree with Farmgirl: if the course is fun and instructive, then interested people should by all means take it.

    3. These things being said, it seems to me that training for self defense should start with a brisk walk several days per week rather than a carbine course as it is much more likely that one will need to run like hell from a crook than he will need to get his AR-15 out of the safe.

    Would I be wrong in thinking that many “tactical skills” such as drawing from various positions, reloading, clearing a malfunction, etc. can be practiced in the home without expending a single round?

  30. So we have comments on which schools not to attend.

    How about a list of schools/training to attend?
    NFO? Tam?

  31. DocJim- Concur, but I’d always recommend basic training for ANY weapon to learn the ins and outs of it. TTP (tactics, techniques and procedures) correctly taught and practiced WILL save your life!

    Anon- Tam did provide a list, here are the links in addition to the one provided in the post itself.
    http://www.gunsite.com/main/
    http://www.yfainc.com/
    http://www.pgpft.com/links.htm
    http://www.usshootingacademy.com/Default.aspx
    http://vickerstactical.com/
    http://www.tigerswan.biz/
    http://www.sniperschool.com/
    http://www.theballisticedge.com/
    And I’m sure there are others I’m missing…

  32. Well, you can forget about Mid-South:

    Due to World Events, as of January 2005, we are only booking Courses for U.S. Military, U.S. Government Agencies and State or Local Law Enforcement Agencies. We must have 8 or more people from a single Unit to book a Course. These Groups may call us at 662.781.1112 to check for open dates.

  33. NFO, I know Lissa has had good things to say about the training she and Mike received at Sig Academy.

    I really should look into that, seeing as how it’s less than an hour from me…

  34. Jay- If so please do a post on it. I only put the list in of the ones Tam mentioned and the ones I personally know about, that was why I said I’m sure I’ve missed some (like Sig Academy)

  35. Also just to clarify a point – body armor and rifle plates are freely availiable to civilians.

  36. NFO,
    I wasn’t responding to a slam on instructors from you but rather one of the commenters prior to me – and Tam helpfully pointed out that one the negative comments would have to have come from a oija board or seance.
    I notice you did omit Thunder Ranch (even though Clint was the next one Tam mentioned after Gunsite) so if you’ll permit;
    http://www.thunderranchinc.com
    Yes I not only read the posting at VFTP but also commented there. I felt strongly enough about the training provided at Thunder Ranch that I sent two of the people most precious to me in the world there to learn – and I was very pleased with the results. I accompanied my Bride and was allowed to hang out (and fill magazines). I heard all of the instruction and watched all of the training. Yes there was some room-clearing at the end but I think Clint’s preface was VERY important “We’re covering this not because I want you to do this – I DON’T want you to do this, but you might HAVE to do this someday and you should know the BASIC elements.” As Tam noted,the basics, properly taught, reinforced and practiced are what’s important.
    My Bride came away with skills and confidence – and had FUN doing it. Those who know her know she’s the last thing from a “wannabe” or mall-ninja.
    Just as with my first class at Gunsite (while on Active Duty as a JO back in the dawn of time), Bride’s class was a mix of military, LEO and civilians.
    I’m not slagging on the Chief either; hell, he might be a friend of mine from the Teams for all I know. A SEAL Chief of long acquaintance (since he was a GMG2) had a fairly common reaction to my sending my son (who is not in NSW) to Thunder Ranch “You’re a good Dad”.

  37. I may just be blessed, that I’ve attended “good” classes.
    Ayoob, Jarrett, a couple of others.
    I have always come away with some new skills, which of course had to be practiced for awhile to become ingrained. I do this not to just improve my skills as a shooter, but to improve myself as a Trainer.

    Big Boy Rules?? If safety is not a paramount part of the course, then it is only a matter of time before someone is injured or killed.
    It’s a tragedy when it happens in Military training, nearly always avoidable in LE training,& totally avoidable in Civilian training.

    There are excellent trainers in all fields, and there are lousy ones too, it pays to ask questions, observe a class if possible before attending as a student. Ask for references

  38. JJ- Thanks, I wasn’t aware of that, or never thought of trying to buy any…

    Boatguy- That’s a Doh on my part… i “knew” I was missing a some important trainers! Thanks.

    Duck- Thanks and concur.

  39. Big Boy Rules is Army slang, I’m not surprised your SEAL friend didn’t know it.

    It means that you are allowed to buddy clear your weapons instead of being rodded on and off the range. We will often have a Squad Leader do a clearing inspection instead of rodding.

    It doesn’t mean you have license to be unsafe, just that the range isn’t being run with like a basic training range.

  40. Much emphasis has been placed on tactical shooting training, and none at all, that I can see, on what is going to be just as important to the civilian who finds himself in a use of force situation.

    What comes after? How do you act until the cops arrive? How do you act afterwards? What do you say to them? What do you say to the DA’s investigators? What do you say on the stand when testifying? Mas Ayoob wrote a series of articles on those topics (no, I’m not endorsing him specifically, he’s just the name that popped into my head). In the use of force training I have had and given, which is limited to security forces in a military environment, as much training is oriented towards building an image of competence and sobriety as is towards fire, cover and movement, and communications.

    There WILL be an investigation, and if you do everything correctly in the gun fight but then end up looking like Barney Fife after wards, then enjoy the next bunch of years in prison, and reconcile yourself to never being able to legally own a firearm again.

    Many have said they’d rather be judged by twelve than carried by six, and I wholeheartedly agree. Add that I’d also rather go home, put my feet up, and have a beer after being judged than get myself fitted for an orange jumpsuit.

  41. Steve,

    Much emphasis has been placed on tactical shooting training, and none at all, that I can see, on what is going to be just as important to the civilian who finds himself in a use of force situation.

    I think that part of the problem is a massive disconnect over the meaning of the word ‘tactical’ when applied in the training universe.

    “Tactical Pistol” (as opposed to “Basic Pistol”) has been in use for decades to distinguish classes that involved movement and cover and “Problem #2” from classes that began with the instruction “Please remove the price tag from your trigger guard. Now note which end the bullet comes out of…” The descriptor was in use long before the word “tactical” was applied by marketing departments to anything that was black and expensive… 🙂

  42. Steve- See Tam’s answer below.

    Tam- Thanks, you are correct in that the disconnect IS huge- Part of that I believe is on purpose on the part of certain groups

    Paw- thanks, are you sure you want to jump into this snakepit?

  43. On your list of schools I noticed that you did not mention the Appleseed Program although not a Tactical Program per say it will teach the basics of hitting what the f##k your shooting at.And if you can´t hit what your shooting at you really should not be taking that shot.

    And is Front-Sight a good Tactical School or not Smoky Behr said it was the last place that he would attend, But they are the fastest growing school in the country, And I have already spent the money to be come a lifetime member at the Patriot level.I know 3 people personally that have attended some of their courses and all Three say that Front-Sight is a Great Shooting School and want to return when they are able. All three of these guys shoot I.D.P.A. and are very good maybe not to national level of competition but far better than I am. So what gives.

    And I think your Seal friend has a¨ONLY ONES¨attitude. And that is one of the best reasons for ¨Civilians¨to take these kinds of courses.

    Dennis
    III
    Texas

  44. While I fundamentally agree with what was posted, as grownups we often engage in activities that we do not “need” to.

    The reality is that no civillian “needs” an AR15 rifle, just as nobody “needs” a high performance car that has race car capability. Nobody “needs” to fly a private airplane. Fortunately, there are driving schools out there that are available TEACH people how to drive, how to fly or how to shoot.

    The bottom line is that it’s fun. Why shouldn’t I test myself against my peers and push myself to do more, to do better? What is the difference between training with a tactical rifle and similar training with a handgun? In fact, similar rules apply to the deployment and operation of both these weapons platforms, so why not train on them if I want to?

    Finally, as a former police officer who trained and deployed on a “swift entry team”, since retirement I find that I enjoy training this way. it keeps me sharp, maintains my competence with and confidence in the weapons platform and it’s just a lot of fun!

  45. Actually AM; if “Big Boy Rules” is “Army slang” it’s Brit Army slang – SAS guys were using it LONG ago and I’d be amazed if there is a Team Guy who hasn’t been exposed to it – in various iterations and perversions (which was the point of the original post on Tam’s site).
    That said I think AM has one of the best summaries of what the term originally meant when he wrote
    “It doesn’t mean you have license to be unsafe, just that the range isn’t being run with (sic) like a basic training range.”

    I’ve not heard good things about Front Sight. I would not send anyone there.

  46. If your main points were to emphasize realistic training and safety, I agree.

    I do believe longarms are more effective if we find ourselves in a fight. Since most of us spend at least 1/3 of our time at home, it is reasonable to believe we might have access to a carbine or ahotgun. And it’s only wise to be trained to use our tools.

    John

  47. INRE Suarez.

    I’ve taken a course from his outfit and will be taking more next year. GS was not the instructor but the guy that did instruct (Tom Cornelius)was knowledgeable, courteous, and professional. No unsafe gunhandling was taught or permitted throughout the training and I walked away with a lot more knowledge about how to manipulate and shoot an AK than I had before the course.

    The “warrior stuff” is marketing. If it offends you, as it so obviously does Tam, you might want to look elsewhere, but the course I took was safe, fun, and I learned a lot. To me,that makes it a worthy investment of my limited time and cash.

    Keith

  48. Man, did you guys watch top shot where that SEAL quit? He walked off b/c he would have to go head to head with the church camp director.. who was a better shot btw. He was afraid to lose.. to a civilian who had no where near the training he did.. but was a better shot and had an attitude 10X better. These guys get some kinda Hollywood treatment, and this attitiude that they are just better, its bullshit. We, as civilians, have every right to train however we please. Do what ya do. Oh yeah, that church camp director.. he won top shot, beat out alot of professional shooters/soldiers. Dont tell me he couldnt hold his own in a firefight with the best of em. fuck this chief.

  49. Crucis, The only person who could have had a negative opinion of Thunder Ranch twenty years ago would be your neighborhood psychic. 😉