Rules of Engagement (ROE)
Ed Rasimus over at Thunder Tails did a great job in his books of talking about the ROE we had in Vietnam from the USAF perspective, and took some (expected) shots at the Navy. 🙂
But, ours wasn’t a piece of cake either… ROE differed significantly between I Corps and II Corps, especially with respect to the offshore activities (mostly the stuff ‘we’ were involved with). We primarily chased the armed sampans that were trying to re-enforce the VC in South Vietnam with nightly trips South.
If you were down in I Corps and you got shot at, it was simple; call the ‘duty’ attack airplane, end of problem. Report it when you got back.
In II Corps, it wasn’t that easy… You had to get shot at, confirm the shooter, call back for permission to shoot to some Army post, who then called the Province Cheif (VN), who then ‘decided’ whether return fire was authorized (usually it was not)!!!
ROE’s are pretty much changeable depending on who is in charge, how ‘questionable’ the information is (seems like they never trusted us then, nor the troops now)…
Freedom of Navigation (FONs)
Another ‘fun’ little exercise… During the Cold War, and still today FON Ops are conducted to within 12 NM of foreign shores to exercise freedom of the air and seas. 12 NM is internationally recognized as the limit of ‘space’ owned by countries over the water. In the late 70’s we were doing a FON up off Russia, so we had a rotating set of F-4s supporting us. Of course the USSR put up an IL-38 May and a set of Mig-25s to ‘counter’ us… Both sets of fighters were fully weaponed up (just to add a bit of spice to the equation)…
So we’re flying patterns dropping buoys, which would be countered by the IL-38, and any time we ‘approached’ the 12 mile limit (we used radar to ‘ensure’ we never crossed), the Mig would swap sides with the IL-38 and aggressively push us out.
One Mig was VERY aggressive in his ‘push’, so we decided to fix his butt… We were at the Southern end of our track and getting close to our offsta time, so we called the F-4 (who conveniently was off the opposite wing) and told him we were going to slow down. We dropped to 180 kts, the F-4 dropped flaps, leading edge, etc. and was basically hanging on the engines, and we noted the Mig was starting to wallow a bit. We kept coming back on the power, down to 160, then 150, then 140. All the while we were gradually descending from 5000 to 3000 feet. Finally at about 140 kts, the Mig departed and stalled/pitched over…
Needless to say he was a ‘tad’ upset… We told the F-4 we were continuing down, departing to the SE ‘slowly’… The F-4 jumped to the other side, and he and the Mig went a couple of rounds, of feint and maneuver until they finally decided we were not going to play anymore…
We did similar things in the Med in the 80’s except we’d tuck F-14s in and they would ‘ride’ with us as we patrolled below the “Line of Death” Qaddafi had threatened us with. Never had any real problems down there.
A friend from OCS was aboard a CG who got tasked to go a FON up in the Black Sea, and his trip got ‘rather’ exciting, according to him. They were conducting a FON off Russia, when a Krivak came out and started pacing them. They were maintaining about 12.1nm off the coast when the Krivak sped up and RAMMED them on the port side! The Krivak kept pushing them until they stepped out to about 12 1/2 miles. He said the OPREP 3 on that was interesting…
Edit- Corrected thanks Helm and a couple of others- CG not DDG… I wuz an airdale… It’s a ship! 🙂
“Fun” things…
One more Med story- During the Libyian bombing, politics got in the way (gee, BIG surprise), and the decision was made to make this the first operational use of the F-117 (but then the AF got paranoid) so they decided to use FB-111s from Lakenheath rather than just Navy attack acft already in the Med (we ONLY had three carriers there at the time; Saratoga, America, and Coral Sea). Well Reagan, in the interest of ‘harmony’ within NATO, informs the other countries of the plan.
Immediately the French and Spanish refuse over-flight authorization… So rather than a short flight or going back to Navy assets, the Pentagon decided to use FB-111s and make them fly down and through the STROG into the Med (adding at least two hours to the mission). Meanwhile, ‘we’ were supposed to loadout with Harpoons and be the onstation CSAR asset.
Except, Italy had also been told… And at NAS Sigonella, the weapons were physically located across a public road from the airfield. Which the Italians blocked… I really though we were going to get in a shooting war with the Italians right then and there, as the Marines escorting the weapons were in a LAV and were locked and loaded and weapons were pointed at the Italians. AND the Marine Guard on the Airfield was also locked, loaded and had the field side gate opened to receive the weapons. It never got resolved and we got launched with nothing on the wings… sigh…
We lost one FB-111 with two crewmen, but we never got a SAR call, and since the Libyans recovered not only the bodies, but the acft, it’s probable they crashed right off the coast. I can’t help but blame the Spanish, French and Italians for those losses…
If they’d been allowed direct over-flight, the odds of success would have greatly increased, they would not have been as tired, and probably would have survived!
Then you have the number of acft that have been ‘hit’ by the other side, be it the USSR or China…
Flying missions up North of Iceland were always interesting, some times the harassment was Fighters, sometimes Bear Fs. We flew a profile one day, nothing; the next day a Norwegian crew flew the SAME profile and got hit by a Mig-31 and destroyed and engine and sprayed parts through the fuselage… They got back okay though.
And there’s the story of PR-32… It was also hit by a Chinese F-8 off Hainan Island. You can read the CRS report HERE.
This is ‘stuff’ that our Military does every day, because it’s their job. John Q. Public is seldom aware of the potential impact to those who are flying the airplanes, driving the boats, or doing the ‘dirty’ work behind the lines…
We called it ‘fun’, but that was the gallows humor of the situation(s). Every chance in the world to F-it up, and very few to do it right!
But that’s just my perspective…
You can go read Blind Man’s Bluff for more from the Sub side, or Deep Black to get a sense of what does go on ‘behind the curtain’ so to speak, or get Ed’s books…
Kicking the soap box back in the corner now… Thanks for reading!
One of these days the Spanish or French or Italians are gonna need us for something we don’t particularly care about, and I hope we shaft ’em just like they did us.
A good video of the incident in the Black Sea is on YouTube. I can’t find the link right now, though. And there’s a really nice PLAT camera video of a Whale (A-3) making a bolter. He had to dump fuel to make it. And there just happened to be a “trawler” off the port bow. Aw, shucks.
And don’t forget getting lit up by fire control radar up near the DMZ in Korea. Or the occasional tracer fire. Or the Hinds pacing us from across the border in Germany with their cannon locked on us. Or the Persian Gulf in ’78 off Iran.
Local man was CO of the F-111 strike package in Libya. Ernie Bishop has the same low opinion of our “allies”.
They are putting an F-111 in the Aviation Heritage Park here in town to honor Col. Bishop.
Gerry
Don’t know if this is a true story or not – probably not, but it should be. Anyway…
Shortly after the 1986 U.S. bombing of Libya, Ronald Reagan encountered the French ambassador at some embassy function. Reagan blocked the Frenchie’s path.
The ambassador said “Excuse me” and waited for Reagan to move.
Reagan stood there and replied “Go around.”
Yeah Andy, what do you think the odds are of us shafting them??
Andy- Concur…
Don- I wasn’t aware that got made public…LOL All the rest, yep…
Gerry- That’s GOOD news!
Tim- LOL, who knows!
Agirl- Good point!
When I was at Mildenhall (Yeah, Army guy TDY to the Air Force. Fun fun fun), going to the club and listening to the older air crews talk was a very educational experience.
My cousin Joe Bodollo was a Bomb Loader at Lakenheath for the Strike. Now Retired USAF, he tells me that the thing that pissed him off was the fact that they didn’t have enough time to paint “$@$%^% Khadaffi!” on the Bombs.
Oh, FWIW, Joe decided that on his next Tour, he wanted some Peace and Quiet, so he grabbed an A-10 Squadron out of Charleston. You might remember that when Saddam went to Kuwait for his Spring Vacation, AFTER Bush the Elder sent over the F-15s, the next Squadrons to go over were the Warthogs.
So much for Peace and Quiet. ; )
Don was this what you were talking about?
It’s funny looking back at the games . . . . good stories!
I have always found comfort in the gallows humor that was present on different missions . . . keeping your head in the game, but knowing that your fate is, well, your fate.
One of the big differences I see today are that our enemies in those days were not, simply, insane. They had distinct, understandable geo-political goals – the Russians, Chinese, North Vietnam – you could actually wrap your head around it.
Today, you wouldn’t nudge wings or trade rounds with our enemies, they will simply blow-up themselves, their kids, their women – all the while traveling down the road to global jihad.
Kinda makes me wish for a couple random rounds coming over the perimiter . . . .
I’ve been debating for awhile whether the US should stay in NATO or leave. If we left, NATO would collapse. The Euros cannot fill the gap.
On the other hand, with the resurgence of Putin, China, Iran and the Islamic Brotherhood, we just may need those bases at some future time. It’s a tough call. Our military is stressed to the breaking point and being whittled, bit by bit, to an unsustainable level to meet our “committments.” I’m unsure which option would be better for the long-term.
rickn8or: That’s it. A crewman shot the video (thus the mediocre quality) from the bridge wing, I believe.
NFO: Which one didn’t you think was public? As far as I know (hope I didn’t break OPSEC) those incidents are well known, at least amongst us. Whether the American media reported on it, I have no idea. You know what it was like on deployment in those days. Treat us like mushrooms.
DB- I can imagine! 🙂
Les- Ouch and OUCH! He couldn’t win!
Rick- Yep, that was it, there is also ‘another’ official version of that from a different perspective.
eia- EXCELLENT point! And yeah, the random round/rocket is ‘much’ easier to handle…
Crucis- We’re stuck with NATO due to the treaties, regardless of what the administration wants.
Don- You didn’t 🙂 And I’m NOT sure it was ever reported in the MSM. Remember, back in the day, what happened on deployment STAYED on deployment…
Thanks for an interesting read.
WSF- That’s just the stuff I ‘can’ talk about! 🙂
Blind Man’s Bluff is an OUTSTANDING read. And re-read.
I could never understand why the politicians just do not shut up and go away.Let the military do it job.
Mike- Yep, I read it and laugh… They got ‘outed’ 🙂
Rick- I wish… sigh
I don’t think that was a DDG that was rammed by a Krivak, I think it was the Yorktown, CG-48.
Helm- You’re correct… Hey, I’m an airdale, it was a ship; one of ours… We had to use cheat sheets to figure out who our guys were! 🙂
And as I recall, somebody’s embassy got hit that night in Libya…by accident, must have been those tired F-111 aircrew…
Had a friend on Coral Sea that night. (I was on Forrestal, we got there after everything was over…as usual…)
Thanks for all that stuff!!!
Larry, I remember that. But in the news coverage, the lettering on the fragments of the missile was in cyrillic.
The link for the Krivac/Yorktown was sent to me by my son. He asked “Did this happen all the time?” I described a few personal examples. I think he’s got a little bit better appreciation for what his (strictly airdale) dad did for a living.
Larry- It was the French Embassy (irony of ironies)… And Rick is correct, it was a Russian missle that was fired didn’t detonate, and came back down landing on the embassy… BUT, we STILL got blamed…
NC- You’re welcome!
Rick- Thanks for chiming in!
Great stories! Much appreciated. You know, I’d buy the book…
Six- I’d get arrested if I wrote the book… sigh
I was with 2nd Bn 3rd Mar when the PR-32 incident happened. We were training in Fuji and were recalled off of liberty, kitted up and put on strip alert. All we were told was that there was a possible TRAP we would have to execute.
As the hours went by, and we started getting more of the situation briefed to us, we were told that Hainen Island was home to 8 Chinese Divisions. You want to talk about a sobering tidbit of news! We went from dreams of fast roping onto an airfield and saving the day, to the realization that an opposed air assault would see more than a few of us not come back.
I was a LCpl at the time, so don’t know what the real plan for us was. All I know is that, as this was before 9/11, and none of us had been in combat yet, we were still disappointed when eventually we were stood down and told that the matter would be resolved diplomatically. Oh to be young and naive enough to be disappointed about missing out on the opportunity to fight against 72:1 odds!
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