A group of us old farts have been chatting back and forth on email about this for a couple of days…Since we’re not ‘current’ on things, lot of this is speculation, but we have all been there, launched our asses before.
—–Original Message—–
From: Wxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 X:XX AM
To: Xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re- Contingencies and Response
Snake, your points are valid, but remember they don’t have the same capability in theater we did. Only 1-2 birds in Sig. And we’ve all stood watch in similar circumstances. 5th and 6th Flt, and both carriers would have been pulling binders as soon as the flash came in.
Tripoli DID launch a bird, they got in no problems other than transport from the airport.
Real question is who was watching the feeds, where they got dumped, and who was sitting in the Pentagon battle cab.
It’s 430 nm g/t from Sig to Benghazi, so 1+30 transit at 330kts, if they pushed it up, less. Same roughly for the Spectre.
Spectre goes with RRF, figure 1+30 to round up everybody, arm up. They get onsta 3+00 in.
So figure 2 hour alert, load two SLAMS another hour. Now we’re at 3 hours. Transit and they’re onsta 4+30 in.
It’s 1800nm from 5th Flt to Benghazi, so tanker avail would be the issue, but if they limited load to two LGBs or JSOW and external drops, they could have been there in 3 hours. That’s 8 18’s with two all up rounds, and second flight could have diverted to Sig to refuel while the first flight went direct.
SLAM/JSOW could have fired on either GPS or Laser, LGBs would have had to have Laser. And that was available until compound fell.
And we all know that would have been at min State call, and probably OO call. Question is what was Defense/CJCS doing? Panetta was lying about the fog of war bullshit, and Dempsey has drunk the koolaid based on his earlier positions. question is who actually told them to stand down and where/how was that communicated. Somebody somewhere has that info, maybe on the high side, but it has to be there. No watch officer I ever served with would have stopped preps/alert without specific record traffic to do so.
Based on what we’ve been going back and forth on, I think the bottom line is they didn’t put assets in because of the perception in ME/muslim that it would have been an INVASION of Libya
Wxxxxx
I have to agree with the last line at this point. I’m pretty much convinced the reason no response was allowed was the administration (DOS and President) didn’t want to ‘appear’ to be invading Libya… I think this is a pretty sad excuse, since almost 100 TLAMS were fired during the uprising to ‘support’ the uprising.
There is NO question in our minds a military response was possible, and could have gotten there in time. And Peter does a great job of dispelling the ‘conspiracy’ theory HERE about Gen Ham and the CSG RADM relief. That is just flat ‘noise’, and an attempt to pawn the blame off on the military.
I truly hate to think that a political decision over-rode saving American lives, but at this point I don’t know what else to think.
Comments??? Are we full of it???
Remember that this is an administration that equivocated and waffled for hours (or days, depending on who is telling the tale) about whether or not to go in and get freakin’ bin Laden himself. Do you really see that bunch of cowardly lemmings or the Fundraiser-in-Chief making the real gutsy call to send air and ground assets into Libya in front of the whole muslim world and just before the elections? Heck, if the “video guy” that they blamed for the whole mess didn’t already exist, I’m thinking that they’d have just invented him.
You are seeing it from the point of view of those who know what they are doing. Who, in the Obama world, fits that description?
I think Well Seasoned said it best. No one in the current administration would have any idea how the pieces fit together, nor what to do with them.
No, you’re not full of it. This was a clusterfark of the hugest proportions, but we have to look at history for a parallel. Think Nixon, Watergate. Embroiled in an election, trying hard to get re-elected, mistakes are made. In Nixon’s case no one died, but the cover-up finally became more of a liability than the original crime. People went to jail as the coverup was unveiled and a presidency was destroyed.
That should be our rallying cry: Watergate didn’t have a body count.
No, you’re not full of it. There’s too much smoke for there not to be any fire somewhere.
FWIW, I subscribe to the “we don’t want to offend muslims” theory, reinforced by a heaping helping of incompetence.
I was a grunt artilleryman so my view always tended to terminate at the gun/target line. Still, this strikes me as a situation where positive input to stand down was needed in order to keep assets from responding. The CIA says they were ordered to do so, three times. Blackfive has a story about a laser designator on target which indicates there must have been something in the area that could shoot something. Yet no such fire was placed. Again that seems like a situation where someone ordered them not to.
I simply cannot fathom any scenario where Americans, including an Ambassador, were under fire and the military not responding. Even if it was suspected it was going to be untimely they’d still have gone. Just in case. A non-response by area assets makes me believe that people at the very highest levels of the chain of command were responsible for those orders. Combat commanders are still supposed to be chosen for a certain level of aggressiveness and this case called out for exactly that. I has to be laid at one person’s doorstep and he just happens to be questionable at best as a CIC.
I think you guys are dead on. I wish that weren’t the case but reality is what it is. Four prople paid with their lives for political expediency and that just stinks to high heaven.
Not full of it at all. It’s all about Obama, his image, his fear of pissing off the Muslims, and his lack of experience in ANYTHING military. Plus the disdain Hitlerrie Clinton has for the military. Too much politics, not enough courage.
Well, I gotta say that – yes, you are full of it – afterall you’re a retired vet . . . . and we’re all “full of it”, comes with the territory.
That said I believe the facts are quickly overwhelming the BS coming from the Whitehouse. Sadly, I don’t think politics played a great deal in the decision not to act. It undoubtdely was some part of the equation, but I think the reason for holding off is something much simpler and more troubling . . . .
I think Obama simply froze and therefore was unable to make a decision. The brutality of the attack, the cries for help, the realtime video – I think he was simply shocked into doing . . . . nothing.
We’ve all seen officers or NCOs at one time or another, freeze. Here is a man with no experience of the savagery of combat, no real grasp of the evil he has been toying with . . . . he is in so far over his head that I think this specific instant was his breaking point.
He froze . . . . period.
All IMNSHO, of course.
What I’m nervous about is that the higher brass is subverted by political correctness. Remember the response to Ft. Hood, and how it “wasn’t an act of terror”? That was under George Bush.
If there was 4 years under Bush and 4 more under Obama, what’s the expected impact to loading the upper brass (star level and maybe one down) with folks who have learned to toe the PC line?
I don’t know if this is true or now, and I sure hope it isn’t. But it explains more than just Benghazi.
Borepatch:
The Fort Hood shooting was a shooting that took place on November 5, 2009, at Fort Hood.
That would place it a year after the 2008 election.
Not even Obama is blaming that one on W.
As for “invasion”, if this was an embassy (not sure about “consulate” status then WE were invaded.
Murph- Probably…
WSF- None that “I” know of…
Rev- Agree!
Paw- Sadly I have to agree, and the MSM CONTINUES to ignore it…
Tim/CP- Concur
eia- yeah, I know it… 🙂
BP- You missed on that one, that was ALSO Teh One- 2009… Bush 43 didn’t give a shit about PCism
Ed- Thanks, and yeah WE were invaded, TWICE!
I don’t know if they are that clever…
PH- Clever or stupid???
My doctor has ordered that I no longer read you NFO!
It’s OK, I haven’t quit smoking either.
I don’t know, but the whole thing smells and it is a recurring theme with this administration!
This whole Benghazi debacle must be viewed as highly toxic by the current regime. Note please the extensive coverage by the lamestream media. – – – – – – – Their silence is resounding.
Only Fox is reporting on any of it.
It is clear to me that the most courageous call Obama has ever made is “Fore” at his local golf course & then only when a caddy was nearby to take the blame if needed.
Agree with you and Ed, GWB would have called Ft. Hood a terrorist attack from the get-go.
I believe Benghazi has crippled the second Obama administration, just as Watergate crippled Nixon. Thanks to the blogosphere and the Internets, this is NOT going away, and the truth IS going to come out. No of the higher-ups is going to throw themselves on this grenade for Obama.
Now, if Sandy will just get done and over with so Benghazi can blow up again oh, I dunno, next Thursday or so…
Agirl- Concur!
Roger- Point!
Rick- Thanks, and agree!
Six- For some reason, your comment ended up in the spam bucket, but thanks for the comment! 🙂
If this is true, the discipline of an air crew to not at least do a flyover to show the attackers that they were living dangerously must have been legendary.
And if this is true, then Obama better hope Romney doesn’t want to look too closely at it after he gets into office.