First, what I did wrong…
On the great Hog Hunt down in Texas, we kept going out and coming back with no shots on any hogs.
FIRST mistake was that I kept loading the ejected round in the chamber back on top of the magazine. STUPID!
(After the fact, in conversation with both Army and Marine troops that go back to Vietnam era, they ALL told me the first thing they did was dump the round that had been in the chamber to either a practice mag, or into a bucket for the ammo monkey to load into mags for use on the range.)
Every other time I’ve been hunting with a semi-auto rifle, we’ve gotten shots off and I didn’t think about what was going on with the round I reloaded, as I usually got shots off on the next cycle.
Note the amount the firing pin protrudes from the locking lugs!
Because I wasn’t thinking about primer strikes… REPEATED primer strikes, 6 or 7 times (3 trips out at night and 4 during the day)! Below is a round after just 2 primer strikes on a military round. Note that it is definitely indented. And I was shooting commercial ammo, not military grade ammo… So in all probability, I created a soft primer situation by reloading that same round…
All of them (and tech support at the manufacturer) agreed I was lucky that I didn’t have a slam fire earlier, and that I was stupid for forgetting that ‘rule’ when shooting semi-auto rifles.
SECOND mistake, we were unloading for the final packout coming home, and the round in the chamber didn’t get picked up by the extractor.
With the Mag out, turning away from everyone and in a safe direction, I dropped the bolt, and the rifle discharged.
Note- I DID obey all the rules and turned the rifle away in a safe direction (e.g. I knew what the backstop was, earth).
What I ‘should’ have done was stop when the round didn’t extract, take a rod and push the round out; then figure out why the extractor didn’t pick it up….
When I got back to the hotel, I partially disassembled the rifle and noted the extractor was partially broken! Whether this happened before or after, I’m not sure…
On return I called the manufacturer, they gave me an RMA and the rifle was returned to them for inspection. They ended up replacing the sear and the extractor was replaced.
Bottom line, MY stupidity, nothing else caused this ND. It was not the gun’s fault, not the ammo’s fault, it was MY FAULT…
Thankfully, no one was hurt, and other than ringing ears, no damage was done.
Trust me, I won’t ever make either of those mistakes again… And once again, we are NEVER too old to learn.
A very good reminder, both about the ND and the “never too old to learn” part.
There’s a saying amongst motorcycle riders. “There are only two kinds of riders… those who have dropped a bike, or those who will drop a bike”.
Well, there are only two types of gun owners as well….
I have had three ND’s in my life. Once as a boy, and two as an experienced shooter. Two were solely my fault, the last was a mechanical issue with the pistol.
No one ever got hurt from a shot I have fired on purpose or otherwise. Call it luck, or call it grace.
Thanks for the reminder about dented primers. Afraid I have that same very bad habit.
And yeah, regarding ND’s, “there’s them that has and them that will.”
You think the sear was replaced as an anti-litigation measure rather than it actually being bad?
When I first saw the title of your post, “Negligent Discharge,” I thought you were referring to Eric Holder’s father from many years past. . .
As Carteach said, only two kinds of real shooters.
Imagine being a scroungy looking undercover “biker from hell” in the middle of a big-city federal law enforcement office where you were brand new and capping off a Federal 9mm Hydrashok +P+ right in the desk in front of you.
On your first day.
During the first hour.
With your supervisor sitting right next to you.
I paid for a lot of new underwear being laundered that day.
Including my own.
**It happens. Yes it does.
–AOA
P.S. Worst part about it all was that the papers that got chewed up from that feisty little hollow point round were my expense vouchers. . .
Good post, thank you for sharing this with us.
I had a negligent discharge once.
He’s 35 years old this month… (rimshot).
Seriously, thanks for the lesson. And thanks for reinforcing the importance of safety rules that protect us all from the consequences of things like NDs.
Glad you and everyone else is OK, and thanks for sharing. An unfired round in my AR is pretty unusual, but I have noted lightly dimpled primers just from the free-floating pin.
I wonder if a firing pin spring would affect rifle function? Similar to that used by Springfield on their 1911s (titanium pin with a spring to prevent it from moving until the hammer drops)…
Because you followed the rules, the only thing that was hurt was your pride. And that isn’t fatal. And you’re man enough to share this with us so we can take it as a lesson too. Thanks for being the most Fascinating Man in the World and for sharing this with us.
At the risk of nitpicking, that strikes me as one of the rare accidental discharge instead of an ND. But still a good lesson at little cost. Good job on following “the rules”.
Darn but that’s a loud bang, isn’t it!!!! I’ve heard it twice myself…..
But like you, I was fortunate enough to have things pointed in a safe direction both times.
Rick
I wouldn’t have thought of it either. Glad good habits kept anything bad from happening.
Rev- Yeah, I ‘learned’… sigh
Carteach- Thankfully no one hurt here either (other than my pride)
Rick- I think it was a ‘preventative’ replacement, just in case the sear might have been damaged.
mm- I screwed up, and am willing to own up to it if it prevents someone else from making the same mistakes. Thanks!
Tim- Not EVEN going there 🙂
Zer- AR type platforms ‘have’ to float, due to the way they are designed. They don’t have any springs in there…
MC- Just honest, and hoping others can learn from my mistake.
Randy- AD/ND, the damn thing STILL went off without me pulling the trigger, so I’m taking the blame, since I caused the issue to start with.
Rick- Yeah, sigh… At least THAT part has been beaten in my head for years!
DB- Point!
Ya know, Todd Jarret showed me where he put a round through his own hand. He’s as good as I’ve ever seen, but NO ONE is too good to
make a mistake. We just have to be as careful as we can.
Not as bad as having a round pop out when you clear your pistol before handing it back to TSA.
Or so I’m told.
Learning experience. Lucky too. You’re not alone though. Happened to me on an elk hunt back in the 70’s. Until then I’d never heard of this particular problem. My round went up into the air and probably hit the side of the mountain somewhere, so I was lucky too.
Good to hear a potentially fatal situation….WASN’T!
I’ve had one ND (so far) and it was at the range with the pistol pointed downrange. It was with my Sig P226, and not my 1911, no less!
I had a visit from the bullet fairy yesterday too. Little bastard put a loaded round in the chamber of a gun I knew was empty. I was showing my friend and student the rather stupid mag safety in a Bersa .380 when I pulled the trigger and heard a bang instead of a click.
Eyes and ears were on, the gun was pointing downrange and I knew it was safe in that direction. Still, there is nothing quite so sphincter tightening as that “Oh Crap” moment though. I broke two of the rules and had a good teaching moment on why the other two are just so damned important. Also that this was a ND not an AD.
To date, I’ve had one ND, and that was with a Cheap Italian Blank Gun I was using for WW2 Re-Enacting. That’s enough.
But nowadays, if you catch me dropping the Mag, racking the Slide, applying the Stop, and handing you the Pistol, and you DON’T see me putting my Pinky into the Chamber before I pass it over, slap me up side the head, okay? Starting to get a touch forgetful in my dotage.
I’ve had slam fires in my M4gery with reloads. That primer has to be seated nice and flush (or deep)
That floating pin will get you every time.
I was at a family function when my LEO in-laws started talking about NDs they had witnessed both at the local and state level. I never believed that there could be so many NDs from trained professionals.
While its embarrassing to make these mistakes public, the oil industry used “near misses” to emphasize safety training and doesn’t penalize a worker for owning up to an error. The near miss then becomes the discussion topic for the next safety meeting.
Bet you jumped abut a foot, too. Here’s to the 4 rules being ingrained, so that the worst result was just a serious shot of adrenaline and probably some bad language.
Many years ago I was dealing with a STEN gun that had a live round jammed in the chamber. Like an idiot, I dropped the bolt on it, figuring that the extractor would get a good grip on the cartridge.
In my haste, I forgot about the fixed firing pin until the bolt was already on it’s way home.
You’re right–that’s a very loud bang indeed, especially in the confines of my basement workshop.
It can happen to any of us, and the more experienced shooters are the most at risk due to our prolonged exposure to the weapons and the true adage about familiarity breeding contempt (or at least causing us to drop our guard).
Carteach- Yep…
Ed- THAT must have gotten some attention 🙂
MB- Yep,thankfully the 4 rules are ingrained…
drjim- Amen!
Tommy- Yeah, sneaks up on one in a heartbeat. Glad you were obeying the four rules!
Les- Will do 🙂
MSGT- Yep it happens with semi-autos on a more regular basis… sigh…
PE- Y’all do it like aviation. And since I’m an old aviator, I STILL hew to that principal, admit your mistakes cause it just ‘may’ save somebody elses butt!!!
PE- TRUE!!!
Murph- Yep, it’s that “unthinking” moment when you’re three steps ahead that bites you (Like it did me)…
I don’t put this in the same category as those who pull triggers while pointing guns at people thinking the firearm is unloaded. That’s a negligent discharge.
What you experienced was an outright accident. It was the result of a series of issues none of which could have been easily foreseen. And because you were following the rules of gun safety, nobody got hurt.
Thanks for a learning experience that hurt no one. I had seen primer dents and wondered about them, mistaking them for bad primer in a round that failed to fire. I shall be more alert now. I shall now be an improved instructor on the Appleseed firing line.
The only sound i have heard that is louder was a resounding *click* in a dark alley when i really really needed to hear that bang .
Four. Rules.
Your unswerving observance of them potentially saved a life or two, perhaps even mine.
So thank you for that. Now, where do I send the cleaning bill for the soiled underwear? 😉
Had one not long ago while shooting an M3 Greasegun. It stopped firing and when I examined the ejection port I noted that the bolt was back and there was still ammunition visible in the magazine. Damned thing is so reliable that my brain instinctively did what I would have done with almost any other weapon and immediately began removing the magazine. BAD IDEA! I forgot that it’s ALWAYS a good idea to make sure that an open bolt gun is fully cocked before doing ANYTHING and apparently the bolt had partially hung for some reason but hadn’t fully engaged the sear. As I went to drop the mag, the bolt came forward and, as open bolt guns do, it fired off a round just before I could get the mag out. Thankfully the gun was pointed safely downrange…but, damn, I hate that feeling!
And I just learned something new. Thanks for sharing that one so others of us didn’t have to learn it the hard way!
So if I understand correctly, regarding semi auto rifles, when you have it ‘locked, cocked, and ready to rock’, and yet you don’t pull that trigger, the round that comes/ejects out of the chamber when clearing it, should ‘NOT’ be the first one back into said chamber the next time it’s loaded?
One of local Pd lost his life that way. His sister was the responding medic. Over 20 years ago and I still remember that day
Agreed on following the four rules. Two NDs in my life. One 40 years ago when I learned the difference between a bolt-action and a semi-auto Nylon 66.
The other, last year, was embarrassingly done with a S&W J-frame revolver. Got distracted talking to someone, pushed the ejection lever, glanced at the rounds, and “saw” 5 when there were only 4 in my hand (one round hung up on the cylinder release). Was demonstrating the trigger pull and discharged a round downrange. Now I’m extra diligent about confirming a weapon is clear. A week later the same thing happened to a friend but without the discharge of the weapon (She recalled my story and counted rounds in her hand.)
Thanks for your post. Not a situation I’ve had happen to me but now I know it can exist.
I didn’t know that about semis. Looks like my habit of never taking ammo home is the only thing that’s kept me from experiencing the same thing. (If I was a hunter that would probably be me telling the story.)
Thank you for putting the teaching in a teachable moment.
Shit happens, I am glad you are OK and no one was hurt! Thanks for sharing the incident!
We often think of shooting as a simple, straightforward action.
But shooting isn’t simple; it’s a long sequence of actions, starting with the manufacture and storage of the weapon, the ammunition, and even accessories like holsters, and culminating in loading, carrying, and drawing your weapon.
We shooters need to develop the same habit of examining failures and sharing our faults.
If our training is faulty in any tiniest detail, we may routinely violate one of the four rules, or as in this case, make some other error, and do so without notice or incident.
Long experience without incident may fool us into thinking we’re doing everything properly. We may become blind to that one instant in our routine where we violate some detail of the manual of arms for that particular weapon, or one of the Four rules.
I think often that people who practice the Four can become so complacent as to think that shooting is safe, always a dangerous assumption.
We may even become so self-confident that we feel privileged to mock those who have committed an ND.
Then comes that one combination of circumstances that exposes the weakness in our automatic actions.
And suddenly, irrevocably, we find ourselves in the company of those we previously mocked.
The aerospace industry, under no illusions of simplicity, has made accident review almost a fetish. Articles about pilot error and other failures are a staple of flying magazines. “Work the problem” is the mantra I’ve often heard.
It’s in the nature of training that you do things automatically, without thinking. It is in fact essential that most of the actions involved become reflexive.
Error, mistake, and accident are unavoidable, even essential, in any human activity. And spreading the word of How You Learned About Shooting From That makes the error actually valuable.
Thank you for making the mistake, thank you for investigating it such detail, and thank you for reporting it. You may well have saved lives.
Aw, my apologies, the sentence “We shooters need to develop the same habit of examining failures and sharing our faults” belongs after the paragraph about aerospace.
Thanks for the lesson and the willingness to teach it NFO!
Andy- I hate to disagree, but I HAVE to call this an ND, for the fact that I had been told (albeit a long time ago), about not reloading rounds in the mags…
45er- This also applies to M-1 Garands and carbines too, FYI…
FD- Yeah, I can believe that.
AD- I’ll gladly replace the Undies… you ‘needed’ a new pair anyway 🙂
Rev- Yep, and you’re ‘knowing’ you did the wrong thing a microsecond to late to stop it…
Michael- no problem
Cemetary- That is correct, those rounds should be segregated and loaded in a separate ‘range only’ mag…
Mike- Yep those are the ones that ‘really’ drive the point home.
Swift- You’re welcome and thanks for the comment.
Dave- Yep, dump em to a separate mag
Danny- Thanks.
DJ- Thanks, and I’m a retired aviator, so I could do no less than what I’ve done.
Keads- Embarrassment/humiliation means nothing if ONE person learns from this and doesn’t repeat my stupidity…
Years ago I used to call High Power rifle matches. One fine day I saw a Jr loading his AR by standing it muzzle down on his stool and dropping a round in the chamber and then letting the bolt go home while the rifle was still muzzle down on the stool. I warned him to stop and to close the bolt with the muzzle down range, twice. A few minutes later I’m at the other end of the line when I hear a muffled bang and turn around to see the same boy looking stupidly at his smoking stool with ruined spare mags and other gear. I “let” him stay on the range but in his fathers truck the rest of the day. Reloads with match primers and maybe one was a little high?
AD, when did you start wearing U-Trow?
OldNFO, noisy and startling, but we all came out of it OK. I’d have bet money it was a mechanical problem with the rifle, not an op error. I guess I would have lost.
I’ll learn from your experience and hopefully avoid having it happen to me.
Blind- Good point, and reloads CAN do that… just a tad high is all it takes. Sadly, THAT was not what I did.
TOTW- THAT is why it’s taken this long, I wanted to make sure I had ALL the details right before I posted on it; and it WAS my fault, not the gun…
Thank you for posting and sharing.
It’s a reminder for me to be extra vigilant, specifically with floating pins, but with loading and unloading in general.
My ND was last summer and was at a training course. Was doing shooting from a down position and I put my finger on the trigger before I had it on the target and shot through the frame stand. But the whole time it was pointed in a safe direction so there was no additional damage.
Learned from that too.
Thank you for sharing! I did not know that particular bit of information.
My ND was pointed into sand when I was intending to drop the hammer on an empty chamber of my shotgun. Yeah, not empty.
I’ve only been shooting for a few years. I haven’t had my ND. Yet. Every time I’m at the range the thought crossing my brain is “please not today.”
I just got myself a CMP Garand this summer. I had read a somewhere about Garands and soft primers being a bad mix. Now I have a better understanding of why.
Also just passed the NRA Range Safety Officer class this past weekend. You’ve given me another thing to keep an eye out for when I’m working a firing line. And since I just took an orange hat for Appleseed it’s a good bet I’ll see commercial ammo being reloaded in an AR. Your story may very well collect a “save” this summer.
Thank you for that.
BGM
I had one when I was much younger with a 1911. I disobeyed 2 rules to make it happen and just got damn lucky nothing bad happened. It doesn’t actually sound like you disobeyed any of the 4 rules and that is exactly why everything is fine. I watched Clint Smith point that out at one time before I owned an AR and I never slam the bolt home anymore unless I’m in a safe place to do so. Good point, though on the repeat bolt closures.
Muzzle discipline! It saved you. That’s why there’s 4 rules. It saved me, too. My wasn’t an ND, it was a true AD, a 1911 just back from repair that still had a problem. Nonetheless, when I let the slide go, it went bang.
It was pointed down range at the berm. I will always be grateful for the training, starting with my grandfather, that put that muzzle where it was supposed to be.
What would Grampaw Pettibone say?
Peripatetic beat me to it.
Glad you followed the other rules and no one got hurt! And yep, Never too old to learn!
Jack- You’re welcome
Jenn- It applies to semi-auto pistols too…
BG- “Glad” I could help… sigh
45er/ASM- Yep it CAN happen with 1911s too… And my second or third thought was Grandpa would be kicking my ass if he was there…
Don- Grampa would be chomping at the bit about ‘not following standard procedures’ and observing the warnings, cautions and notes…
Julie- This can also happen with semi-auto pistols, beware on your range…
Yep. Extract the round manually.
BZ
BZ- I thought about it a ‘bit’ too late… sigh
Quit with the sighing.
You had a loud and memorable lesson.
But because you followed the four rules nobody got so much as a scratch and you were man enough to put it out here for the rest of us to learn from.
Seems like damn good value for the money.
BGM
Marty- Yeah, if ONE person learned from it, it’s worth it.
Wow. Thanks for posting about what happened. It’s the way we look out for each other and teach each other gun safety. (Oh, my ND almost-into-body experience was lots dumber than that.)
Now, next time I see you, I want to tell you a story about “know your target” violation of Cooper’s Rule 4 “Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.” The target wasn’t what I thought it was.
I never even knew that could happen. Just one more reason why I want to get some formal training with long guns. I’m going to have to keep this in mind.
MJM- Will do!
Robert- Go do that. It’s worth the $$.
Thanks for sharing, I’ve never thought of that. Going to keep it in mind now.
Ted- You’re welcome
Interestingly enough, this has never been mentioned during my 4 years in the Army. But I’ll not be recycling unfired rounds in the future.
I’ve had two ND’s-one was with a blank firing 1911. The sear was broken, however, I knew that it was broken, forgot, and chambered a round. I don’t quite understand why at that point it didn’t go full auto and empty the mag. But nobody hurt. The second was at a range, shooting a .22 mag that I had recently put a Timeny trigger into. I had opted not to Loctite the adjustment screws, and they must have loosened up. When I closed the bolt, the rifle went off. Luckily in both cases nothing was hurt except my pride.
I was “Lucky” enough to witness another ND while hunting-buddy was unloading a Ruger 77, and apparently the internal magazine release is very close to the trigger. He neglected to open the bolt, dropped the mag, and touched the trigger. Once again nothing was hurt. Sobering experience though. I’m glad this turned out alright for everyone involved.
I used to do the same thing with my Beretta 1934 .32 auto….. until I noticed the imprint on the primer! Not anymore, now I just retract the slide far enough back to see the round is there, I don’t eject it anymore!! Glad things turned out okay, tight cheek time not good.
788Ham
Jim K- I talked to an old 3rd Herd guy, he told me when they were issued the M-16s to replace the M-14s they were told that was a ‘requirement’ to dump the ejected round and not reload it.
788- Good point!
I had a visit from the bullet fairy yesterday too. Little bastard put a loaded round in the chamber of a gun I knew was empty. I was showing my friend and student the rather stupid mag safety in a Bersa .380 when I pulled the trigger and heard a bang instead of a click. Eyes and ears were on, the gun was pointing downrange and I knew it was safe in that direction. Still, there is nothing quite so sphincter tightening as that “Oh Crap” moment though. I broke two of the rules and had a good teaching moment on why the other two are just so damned important. Also that this was a ND not an AD.
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