Need some help over here…
Situation is two Winchester 94s, one a carbine, one a rifle. One 1962, one considerably newer. BOTH in 30-30. Two fairly competent shooters (Lawdog and myself).
Iron sights, from a rest.
With this ammo-
With either rifle, either of us shooting, these rounds were all over the place! Off the paper to 10-11 inches high, 6-8 inches left at 100 yards, NO consistency in the pattern or even on paper some times.
Switched to 150gr Winchester, both rifles grouped about 3-4 inches at 100 yards.
Anybody else had this/seen this problem? We are completely at a loss!
Any help???
Bueller??? 🙂
I haven’t had trouble with Hornady ammo, but I’d write them a note and explain it. Definitely stay with the 150 gr bullets for 30-30, but it sounds as though it’s an ammo issue. Maybe a bad lot? Slightly unbalanced bullets – defective manufacture? Pull a bulled and cut it with a bandsaw and take a look at it.
I am not a fan of flex-tip ammo with a lever action, tube magazine rifle. You don’t have to distort that tip much to have the sort of bad range results that you experienced.
Try the 150 Grain Ballistic Tip Round Nose Nosler bullets if you want that higher expansion with a more reliable projectile. They engineered them for tube magazines and they are very unlikely to distort. I’ve always had good luck with Nosler bullets. They’re a bit more expensive, but the goal is a reliably small group.
I’ve been experimenting with hand loads in .308 using these bullets. Once I dialed the load in (and you have to do it differently for each barrel length and twist), the results in ballistic gel have been nothing short of impressive.
http://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/rifle/products/308-controlled-fracturing-176gr-subsonic-bullet-for-the-300-blackout-whisper?variant=21914196676
Could you try the ammo in a Marlin lever action and see if the results are the same?
Other than that, I have nothing to offer.
I wonder if you don’t have enough twist rate for those bullets.
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Are you doing this?:
https://flagunblog.wordpress.com/2016/11/12/your-lever-gun-is-not-working/
I’ve tried the Leverevolution Ammo in a .45 Colt Rossi (an M-92 Winchester clone) and it wouldn’t group for beans. Likewise, the Hornady Superformance Ammo, in 7mm-08 was the same. With my hardcast 300 gr. ex-wheelweight bullets, I can get sub-2 MOA groups at 100 yards, and my handloaded 7mm-08 (140 gr. bullet at 2700 fps) will give sub-MOA groups out to 300 yards.
Suggest you stick to the tried-and-true loads, and don’t get fancy.
My old 94 (same age as you & me!) shoots best with 170 Gr. Rem. core-lokt.
Rifle, not carbine.
My bro-in-law had the same problem with his rifle (same as yours). He went back to the brand/weight he’d used previously, and the problem went away. He didn’t spend any time analyzing the issue, though; just said, “Nope, that didn’t work.”
LL- I’m back with the old Silver Tips… Sigh… Excellent points though
John- I’m going to try them in a Marlin to see what happens…
Brian- 😛
RS- Thanks!
DT- Good to know! I haven’t used Core-lokts in it.
Rev- Thanks! Looks like that may be a common problem then.
I’ve shot a lot of the Leverevolution in my Marlin 336, as well as the green-and-yellow Remington Core-Lokt, a bunch of Winchester “white box”, several boxes of PPI from Privi, and it all shot about the same as long as it was in the 150~169 grain bullet weight range.
After zeroing in the rifle at 100 yards with the Remington, the Winchester shot the same, and the Hornady shot about 2″ higher, just like it said it would on the box.
Don’t know what it is about your rifle that doesn’t like it, but it works perfectly in my Marlin.
Clearly, the answer to your question is you have too many Winchesters on your hands. As a service to a fellow Veteran, I’ll volunteer to take one (or the other) off your hands. That’s just the kind of caring individual I am.
drjim- Want some ammo??? 🙂
Juvat- ROTF… Ammo yes, Winchesters no… 🙂 It may be old and scarred/beat up, but that was my first ‘real’ rifle…
Jim; Your experience with those rifles again confirms the fact I learned long ago. Rifles are like women. Ever one is different and every one likes different things. Each must be fed what SHE likes, not what any other one likes.
It is YOUR job to figure out what SHE likes. (And she reserves the right to change her mind!)
I asked my sweetie this one…he used to own a gun shop for quite a while up in Alaska…and he basically said the same thing as Roger and CM. Rifles like the ammo they like, doesn’t matter what new fancy expensive stuff the manufacturers have come up with, they only shoot well with the ammo they like.
I laughed at him…but have learned to never bet against him, cause he is so often right, it’s ridiculous. And he certainly has forgotten way more about guns then I will ever know about medicine. 🙂
Suz
Use a bore brush with Hoppe’s bore cleaner.
Sounds like crud in the rifling.
Then use 150 grain ammo. Not any heavier projectile.
Forget the 175 grain.
Sand bag your rifle at the range for a solid foundation rest to shoot from.
Use a spotting scope to look at your target results.
All 30-30’s should be able to group in a 4″pattern or possibly a little smaller,using open sights.
A 4x scope will give you a smaller pattern, always.
BUT,,,, remember this,,,,, the 30-30 lever action rarely will give you a minute of angle at 100 yards accuracy.
For a “brush gun”,this is perfectly acceptable.
Look at a ballistic table, and this will tell you a lot.
My Marlin lever action 30-30 has a 1.5 to 5 power scope on it and is my favorite to carry in these East Texas areas.
And I have a full arsenal to choose from.
Let me know how it goes,,,,,,,,
Roger- Yep… Pretty sure it’s an issue with Winchester lands/grooves vs. Marlin microgrooves…
Charles- Both rifles were clean. Rifles were shot off a rest. We were using a spotting scope. 3-4 inches is perfectly acceptable out of them, and that’s what we got with ST ammo. And we’re going with 150gr Silver Tip. 🙂
Can’t imagine the reason for what should be an entirely trustworthy combo of arms and ammo. I’ve never heard of a Winchester lever gun that was anything like minute of angle, but most seem to be good for three to five MOA. My only “using” lever guns are a 1953-vintage .30-30 carbine and a Marlin Guide Gun ,45-70, both with good, solid aperture rear sights. I use hand loads almost exclusively with both, but they shoot well with Remington factory fodder. Sorry, but I’ve never tried and of the Hdy flexible tip stuff.
I’ve seen you shoot different rifles a lot of times and will happily endorse your talent, as will Elder Son. I’d like to be on hand to see that ammo tested in a Marlin of known accuracy.
Same problem with that loading in .35 Remington in my Marlin 336.
A friend had the same problem in .30-30 with his Marlin. Gotta be the ammo
Suz- Thanks!
JPG- Thanks, and that is the plan… Sigh…
SPE- Interesting… I’ve been told Marlins LIKE that stuff… More research is required 🙂
No idea your rifle/ammo problems, but I’ve seen you shoot so we can rule that variable out. I handload my old Winchester 94 with 170gr Remington core-lokt bullets (don’t have the load in front of me but hit me up if you want it and I’ll find it) and it’s spang on at 100yrds.
Have you tried single loading the cartridges? I suspect the loading mechanism is mangling the flex tip as it extracts from the tube. If that is the case, the flex is not for you, at least not for back up shots.
As a test of the above thought, have you examined an unfired round extracted from the chamber?
Do you have a kinetic bullet puller? If so remove a sample bullet from each loading and measure the length of the projectiles. I suspect the Hornady bullet is longer than its Winchester counter part as it is heavier and the flex tip is made of a less dense material. Perhaps the rate of twist of the barrels is insufficient, though normally the bullets will keyhole when that is the case.
Hillary’s elves infected your rifles, of course.
If going from a 160-grain down to a 150-grain produces superior accuracy, it sounds like a twist-rate thing to me.