Everyone has heard about the building collapse in Surfside, FL. And most people have heard that the search/rescue is ‘going too slow’!
The problem is, IMHO, people have seen other rescue attempts in other parts of the world where the people go in and move pieces/parts by themselves, bulldozers, front end loaders, etc. are brought in immediately and they tear into the collapsed structure…
What is never shown or talked about is how many voids or further collapses those actions precipitate… nor how many additional lives are lost.
Many years ago I went through rescue training and was certified in the State of Florida, so I’m sure what I was taught is outmoded today, but a lot of it stuck with me all these years.
The first response is almost always going to be the fire department, who will immediately set up an incident command and call the utility companies to shut off electrical, water, and any other ‘services’ to the building.
The first things will be getting hose lines in place, trying to determine the ‘scope’ of the collapse, the potential for additional collapse, hazardous materials, and six different surveys of the collapse (all four sides, top, and if possible from underneath).
SAFETY of the searchers will always be the priority for the Incident Commander (IC) throughout the entire evolution.
An initial search will be started as soon as the IC determines it is safe to at least make a cursory search of available areas. There will be an immediate call for search and rescue expertise, shoring material, additional support, heavy rescue, and available heavy equipment that can be used to move things. The shoring material will be used to try to stabilize the collapse, and will also be used for any tunnels/shafts that may be dug/bored/etc. Monitoring will be done for any shifting of the collapse/debris field the entire time searchers are active.
The first searches will be external for anyone visible, then for voids where people might be. There are various types of voids, even in collapses that are caused by walls, support beams, various structures within the building and heavy equipment/etc. These are also extremely dangerous, for obvious reasons. But they will be the first searched, before any boring/tunneling/etc. due to the potential for them to collapse further due to tunneling/etc.
Another thing that will be done is ‘quiet time’, this is when all radios are shut off, all extraneous noise is minimized to the maximum extent possible, and people on all sides listen for people calling, moaning, etc. The rescuers will try to triangulate those noises so that they know where to try to enter the collapse. If available, they will also use electronics and borescope type cameras to do the same thing, and when the dogs arrive, make use of dogs to attempt to locate victims. This will be done on a regular basis, especially early in the search phase.
Considerations will include work time (usually not more than 12 hours a shift, possibly less depending on the weather/conditions), health hazards (breathable air is nice, which is why anyone going into a void/tunnel/shaft will be wearing a SCBA), roping searchers up, and safety people, in case of a further collapse.
The weight of debris is another issue for tunneling/shoring… wood debris averages 35 pounds per cubic foot, steel debris almost 500 pounds per cubic foot, and the weight of concrete or masonry rubble was 10 pounds per square foot for every inch of thickness. Structural engineers (who should be onsite by that time) should assist in determining the load plan for shoring.
A debris removal plan will be devised and coordinated with planned interior searches, and will normally start from the top down. This stage usually requires heavy equipment and expert riggers to rig the debris to be lifted. This is also why most searches work from the top down.
All of the above take time. And more time… As we’re seeing, it’s NOT a quick process, but the IC also doesn’t want to kill the searchers either. It is a slow process, and will seem to observers like the searchers aren’t doing anything, but trust me, they are working their asses off as safely as they can, and they are STILL taking chances.
So say a prayer for those missing, the families that have lost loved ones, and those who are doing the searching. They all need it.
And patience… lots of patience…
It’s not looking good at all. Poor people.
I am just wondering if the Socialist Democrats actually think we are stupid enough to ever accept the results of that fraudulent election? Do they actually think any of us that are dumb enough to see what happened, what has been happening, and what is happening on behalf of us ever accepting it?
We fully understand exactly what we are dealing with. Only useful idiots under the spell of Hypnotism and think that we will just accept it Period… Maybe the Leftist’s in the Entertainment industry and Marxist’s in the Media, and the Education system will accept it.. But not us in the “Silent Majority”, we fully understand exactly what we are dealing with..
The news today said the rescuers/searchers have been at it for over 100 hours. I know they get breaks and food, etc, but that is still a physical and emotional toll on them. It is a totally sad thing for all involved. I see some new cases of PTSD after this. God bless the all.
Rule 0 for first responder: don’t make yourself a casualty, and add to the mess.
The sad reality of “pancake collapses” of concrete buildings is that anyone who survives the initial collapse is severely injured (crush injuries, suffocation, etc.) and almost always dies in the first couple of hours. This building collapsed from the bottom up, further limiting potential survivors to the top few floors (less material falling on them).
When we see survivors found in third world collapses days after the event those are generally where the building fell sideways during the event (earthquakes, landslides,etc.) not a vertical drop on top of other debris.
The news doesn’t report this because nobody wants to watch an archeological dig, they want to see dramatic rescues.
I wish there was a reason to hope.
Is anyone looking at the sister condo building a few blocks away? Same design, same age, same builder, same original owners.
I don’t know more than anyone else does in terms of who might have survived, but soon, it’s debris removal and an Easter Egg hunt because it becomes increasingly unlikely that anyone will be alive in potential voids.
Any potential living victims are now reaching the threshold of death by dehydration. A human being can go almost two weeks with no food, but normally only a few days with no water. The actual time depends on several factors like age, activity levels, overall health, bodily factors such as height and weight,and sex. The incident will soon have to be declared in the recovery phase and no longer a rescue operation. It will resemble the pile at the WTC with recovery going on for weeks.
As a Firefighter/EMT, we are trained when to make those kind of decisions. Situational awareness is KEY to our survival and running in blindly to help can get you killed. We will risk a lot to save a lot, and risk little to save little. An example is pulling up to a fully involved house with heavy fire blowing out every window. There is a woman screaming “MY BABY IS INSIDE!!” and pointing to a window from the front lawn. Those are untenable conditions and trying to make such a rescue would be a suicide mission. No competent Incident Commander will allow a rescue attempt in such conditions.
I watched the video of the collapse. It reminded me of the World Trade center collapses. The tremendous amount of combined weight would crush even large sections of concrete, and humans would be shredded in the process.
JMI- Nope, but the rescuers won’t give up until they have to!
Frank- Point.
CP- There is that…
PK- Exactly. I should have said that up front.
RC- Yep, on the money, and yes the other building is being inspected now.
LL- Yep, 4th day. Out of water…
Glypto- Sadly true…
Pray to God for those lost and their families and those searching for
the remains.
Add in that burning plastics produce phosgene, a chemical used as a warfare agent during WWI. It was an issue in the attack on 9/11 for responders and search and rescue dogs.
Someone wanted respirators put on the dogs and they had to explain the dogs could not smell anything if they did.
Less of a priority is preserving evidence about the details and mechanisms of the failure.
I haven’t been following the news, and often don’t get excited much about human lives.
I’m most interested in the failure analysis and in the engineering records. It would be interesting to know who the engineers involved were, what they said, and how correct they turned out to be.
You’ve heard some of my raving about my belief that we have, as the public, failed in ensuring that lawyers and doctors are properly policed. So, I’m really curious if this is new evidence wrt how well engineers are policed.
Of course, totalitarian surveillance can not compel good quality of work. We should only expect acceptable results from professionals when they are moral, from and answerable to a moral population.
Rushing will also destroy some of that evidence, but it is probably more important the people you kill with rushing, versus the people you will not save even with rushing.
There was a war story/epic fantasy/lovecraftian horror story I reread a bunch back in the day. Author did some very effective things with rescue work, collapses, etc.
God help those trapped by this.
What a mess. I can’t even imagine working a rescue like that.
Many don’t realize the years of study and expertise that it takes to carry out an operation like this. Knowledge of building construction, medicine, logistics, management, the human limits of the rescuers as well as the victims.
At this level of rescue, most of the guys there have 4 year degrees, and a good number of them have Masters degrees. To sit in front of your TV and claim that you know more than they do is to display your own ignorance. In this case, the Governor is smart enough to understand that his presence will do nothing to assist and would actually hinder the operation.
Just a reminder of how frail we humans are.
All- Excellent points! DM- Yes, it’s come a LONG way since I was trained/involved back in the 70s early 80s…
Posted from my iPhone.
Ever played the children’s game “Pick Up Stix”? That’s a building collapse; everything is intertwined and supported in incredibly odd places and ways, you just don’t go diving in headfirst, set one foot in the wrong place and tons can shift, even on small buildings. There’s a reason it takes a big chunk of one’s lifetime of training and experience to develop the specialized skills necessary to deal with something like this one; those of us with responder training but without that level of expertise can do a lot, but very quickly our job becomes one of supporting the experts and coordinating the resources they need.
First…..there aren’t a lot of true experts at this type of rescue in America. Because such collapses are very rare there just isn’t a lot of real world practice in this type of rescue. Perhaps we should ask the Chinese for help….they apparently they LOTS of practice in sifting through collapsed high rises.
Second the physics involved means that there are usually not a lot of survivors in a collapse like this. Even if your body comes to rest in a void of some kind in the rubble….which is a crap shoot in terms of odds….your body will be tossed about and subjected to great forces during the trip from point A down to point B. Forces that are usually great enough to kill you, if not immediately then within a short time frame.
This means there was never much of a chance at finding many survivors. And almost ALL survivors are found in the first few hours. The BEST course of action for big rise collapses is PREVENTION. Because once the collapse occurs there really isn’t much left to rescue but bits and pieces of bodies.
This high rise was KNOWN to be structurally defective and in need of major repairs for a long time. The failure here were political and statutory….people who should have addressed this issue did not. If they had done so adequately then either the collapse would have been averted or the building evacuated.
Simple greed is the number one cause for this tragedy. Poor maintenance/engineering being a secondary issue.
Mike- Excellent point.
Dan- Sadly, I have to agree with you.